Need educated opinions...

[jasonslyric00]

What's up, folks!

I wanna see what everyone thinks about an issue I'm having.
When I sell the wheels, I'm getting an APEXi VAFC and I'm trying to see if it will be worth the money to upgrade the fuel rail/injectors, or if I can rely on the VAFC to push more fuel through the stock rail/injectors and put the money elsewhere, possibly for a bigger boost (and I'm not talking NO2 either).
I just wonder if the difference created by the fuel system upgrade would be enough to warrant the cost.
Also, for anyone that may have done this, or knows someone who has, to an F23 engine, what is the best size injectors to go with, assuming that I go that route.
Keep in mind this is daily driven (although fiercely) so I don't want to push TOO much fuel.

What do you guys think??

[juggalo]

well..heres my opinion..i dont know about educated but in my experience you cant make a large volume of fluid..ie. gas... go through a small hole no matter the pressure you have behind it...all it causes is back pressure...id go with higher volume injectors along with this new fuel system...you can get different pressure rated injectors depending on ur need. :thumbup:

[I8ayellowcrayon]

I wouldn't upgrade the injectors until you go boost. If you bought some 310cc injectors (about right for I/H/E on a F23 with VAFC; maybe a little on the rich side), you'd only be replacing them with 550cc injectors or bigger once you got a turbo/supercharger setup. I would suggest the VAFC for sure, that will help your fuel/air mixture, and VTEC engage points if you do it right.

I personally don't think a VAFC is the best way to go for your setup right now, but I would highly recomend it with boost on a VTEC engine. If you wanted to add more fuel, you could get an adjustable fuel pressure regulator which will raise the static fuel pressure, in turn adding more fuel, but only as much as the computer will allow. In a since, an FPR is overloading the injectors, but its definitely not more than they can handle.

[I8ayellowcrayon]

Oh, and by the way, your stock fuel rail will do just fine up to 350-400hp. For a turbo setup, you should replace the fuel pump, lines if you have the cash and are up for it, a good FPR, and at least 550cc injectors. I think thats about it as far as fuel delivery goes.

[Mr. Merk]

yah i was going to suggest FPR and pump

i've got a 2.9 v6 and i've got a FPR/gauge and 19# injectors in the works (in the garage) and sorry i dont know how many CCs that is, stock is 14lbs, but i'm gonna be runnin a hella lot more mods by june, arent i crayon?

[jasonslyric00]

Originally posted by juggalo@Mar 30 2004, 04:13 AM
you cant make a large volume of fluid..ie. gas... go through a small hole no matter the pressure you have behind it...all it causes is back pressure
Exactly my thinking...

So, Crayon, with an FPR and upgraded pump, the injectors will be fine??
Or get 310cc injectors and the FPR...or the pump...??
Why, with my setup, would the VAFC not be a good idea??? That's the only way to get better air movement at this point, to get all valves open, other than a port job (which is on the way, maybe). And, if I'm gonna pump up the air movement, I should probably try to up the fuel, no??
I think that's what I'm asking...WITH the VAFC, will upgraded injectors/pump/FPR make a big enough difference to warrant the cost, or would I be better off just running the VAFC with the stock fuel flow and upgrading elsewhere???

BTW, Lindsey and I were talking today about the fact that I may have to "zero out" my ECU, or atleast reprogram it to get upgraded injectors to ACTUALLY increase the flow...see, now I'm getting to deep in the pocket.
Basically, assuming I can get the VAFC for 200.00 +/- a $20, what would be my best route with the remaining 300.00?? (assuming that that will be the last upgrading project on the CL).

[drewgray]

do you plan on going boosted sometime in the future? if not what have you done to warrant the need to upgrade all your fuel system? more info is needed

[jasonslyric00]

do you plan on going boosted sometime in the future? if not what have you done to warrant the need to upgrade all your fuel system? more info is needed

Sorry...should have elaborated...

Unless I win a lottery, this car will remain N/A under my wing (technically, if I was going to boost it, it would be with an H22, not the F-series anyway).
So far, all I have is I/H/E, 8mm plug wires and upgraded plugs.
Like I said, this 500.00 may be the last chunk I get to put into the CL, so I have to make it count, but I also have to make it 500.00.
I am sure the VAFC will be a major upgrade for that money, as the V-tec on this thing ROCKS!!
But I want to not only ensure that I get maximum increase in power out of the VAFC, but also get a little more power for the money (key phrase).
See what I mean??

I forgot to mention that I'm trying to stay with mostly bolt-ons, too, since I'll probably be ditching the CL after this year's race season is over.

[drewgray]

I say VAFC and n2o. or fuel pump (that isn't so big as to require a fpr) and n2o. You will be more than satisfied. If you won't use n2o I understand but it is the BEST BANG FOR YOUR BUCK PERIOD

[jasonslyric00]

Originally posted by drewgray@Mar 31 2004, 04:02 AM
If you won't use n2o I understand but it is the BEST BANG FOR YOUR BUCK PERIOD
I know, I know...I just don't trust it.



:..: So, are we settled on the best option being :

VAFC (yes), leave the fuel rail, but upgrade the injectors (nothing bigger than 310cc) and maybe an upgraded fuelpump and, if I can afford one still, FPR, but if not, go without???
Is this agreeable??
Please...let me know.

[I8ayellowcrayon]

I would only upgrade the fuel pump IF you were going turbo. the VAFC won't open your valves any more than they already open. After basic bolt-ons, if you want to get some more simple power, you need to tune. Here is what I would suggest if you aren't going boost any time soon -

I/H/E
adjustable cam gear
FPR
computer reprogrammed to whatever you need
cam

This is for if you're ok with your car having some downtime...
port and polish job
some higher compression pistons
stonger/lighter rods (Eagle H rods, Crower....)

You can also adjust your valves manually, open them up a little bit.

But if you want the most bang for the buck, go N2O. But I cannot stress enough that you need to do it the right way! Get a timing retard setup so that whenever you spray, it automatically retards the timing so you don't melt holes into your pistons.

Last thing (:)), if you plan on going H22, only get things that will swap over to the H22, like an FPR, and well, thats about it. N2O would swap somwhat easily to another engine.

[Maliwho97]

Jason, since you are on a budget, do things that will actually help you. You have $500 to spend, so thats very limited. So what can you do? This. Buy parts that will allow you to "TUNE" your car. Yes, tune it. Many people around here have no earthly Idea what that is. Get a cam gear to adjust cam timing. Get a VAFC to modify your fuel curve. Get an Adjustable FPR to bump up fuel pressure. Those three things will help you the most, I guarantee. If you get those and spend a little time w/ a knowledgeable person and a dyno, you can easily pull out an extra 20-25hp out of your car, to the wheels. If you are going N/A, don't worry about injectors for now. If you insist on it, buy an injector seal set from honda, and get DSM 450cc injectors(silver w/ blue top). That will be PLENTY sufficient for your N/A application. If you can squeeze out a little more money, go ahead and get a walbro 255 pump. They are on ebay for about a bill, so there's no reason to not get one. Oh, and if you want to get real balsy, PM me. I've got a secret setup in mind that I think will make your car and all the H22a TL's wimper. :D

[95TSiEVO6GSR]

I would say just get a VTEC controller and experiment with that a lil bit...but that would prolly be a waste of money/time...Id say go with bigger injectors and the VAFC

[jasonslyric00]

Get a cam gear to adjust cam timing. Get a VAFC to modify your fuel curve. Get an Adjustable FPR to bump up fuel pressure. Those three things will help you the most, I guarantee.

This is the type of answer I'm looking for...I can afford pretty much all of that from what I saw researching.

. If you can squeeze out a little more money, go ahead and get a walbro 255 pump.

85.00 .. I was already scopin' these.
I'm just thinking that, if I'm going to run all vtec open from 3000 up, then it wouldn't hurt to maximize it by increasing the fuel in the all-important air-to-fuel ratio, you know what I mean??
But if the pump isn't going to make a difference, assuiming that I have the FPR, that's when I discount its importance. That's the kind of info I'm looking for.
So....?

Buy parts that will allow you to "TUNE" your car.

If I get into tuning it, I'll NEVER stop. If I can say "nothing but bolt-ons" to myself, then I have a stopping point, so I don't get in too deep again.

Oh, and if you want to get real balsy, PM me. I've got a secret setup in mind that I think will make your car and all the H22a TL's wimper

I'm not sure I need the temptation...
So, to re-recap :..:

[Mr. Merk]

i'm thinkin i'm gonna need a pump soon, what lph should i get? i can get a granatelli 110lph for $77 from jegs, it says for up to 300hp?

[I8ayellowcrayon]

A VAFC would be better than just reprograming your computer, because you could always change it, and if you wanted to sell you car, you would have a 'virgin' ECU.

Patrick, I wouldn't change your fuel pump unless it was on its way out. You aren't going to be pushing that much more fuel. Spend your money on something that you are needing, like exhaust or something :).

[Mr. Merk]

this would be after all the other mods that are underway but remember if i'm going to c'ville or something at full throttle for more than 10 minutes or so it starts to start going lean, i will eventually replace it anyway but its a PITA to do

i just figured with those big injectors the problem would get worse

[Maliwho97]

Check this out.... On fuel pumps, get a large one. I suggest the walbro 255, and here's the reason why. Your stock fuel pump was made to produce a certain amount of presure stock. It had a certain "Duty Cycle". When you add the FPR, it makes it harder for the pump to "Push" the fuel through the fuel rail, then back to your tank via the fuel return line. When the pump works harder, it increases its duty cycle, creates more heat, and when it creates more heat, it heats your fuel. Heat and horsepower do not go together. When you put in the larger pump, it pumps more fuel at a lower duty cycle to keep the system flowing stronger and allow more pressure at the fuel rail, as well as stays a little cooler to keep your fuel cooler. I know its little things, but little things do indeed matter in making more power. Hope that helped man.

[Mr. Merk]

thanks man :thumbup:

[jasonslyric00]

Originally posted by Maliwho97@Apr 1 2004, 03:49 PM
Check this out.... On fuel pumps, get a large one. I suggest the walbro 255, and here's the reason why. Your stock fuel pump was made to produce a certain amount of presure stock. It had a certain "Duty Cycle". When you add the FPR, it makes it harder for the pump to "Push" the fuel through the fuel rail, then back to your tank via the fuel return line. When the pump works harder, it increases its duty cycle, creates more heat, and when it creates more heat, it heats your fuel. Heat and horsepower do not go together. When you put in the larger pump, it pumps more fuel at a lower duty cycle to keep the system flowing stronger and allow more pressure at the fuel rail, as well as stays a little cooler to keep your fuel cooler. I know its little things, but little things do indeed matter in making more power. Hope that helped man.
That was MY reasoning.
Now, say I land the VAFC, but I don't have enough left to get the cam gear, FPR, AND the pump...which is/are more important? (i.e. FPR and Pump and forget the cam gear?, cam gear and something else?, FPR and cam gear but drop the pump?,...)

[I8ayellowcrayon]

I would say get the FPR and cam gear.

[Maliwho97]

Me too. FPR & Cam gear will get you most tuneability on a budget. VAFC, FPR, & Cam Gear. :D

[jasonslyric00]

I would say get the FPR and cam gear
Me too. FPR & Cam gear will get you most tuneability on a budget. VAFC, FPR, & Cam Gear.

I think we're agreed.
Thanks for the help, guys.

[Maliwho97]

No problem hustla. Give me a shout if you need help on the install. I'm always down for tearing some shit up. :D

[jasonslyric00]

Due to unforeseen circumstances (i.e., freakin' house, etc), I do not have the liberty of spending all 500.00 from rims on parts.

I think I have decided, for the money, my best option at this time is to just hunt down a cheap vtec controller...
When my car hits 4800 and vtec kicks in, it takes off pretty good ; I can find a vtec controller for less than 150.00 and, I think, for the difference it will make if I can run all valves open for the length of the track, it will be worth it.
I know this ALMOST sounds ricer-ish, but it's what I'm left with.
Now, my dilema is this :
I can compensate for the extra air by boosting my fuel the best I can (maybe, if I can pinch enough, have my ECU reprogrammed or something), but I8yellowcrayon and I were talking about the lack of oil pressure compensation and what, if anything, that would do to my engine.
So, here is where the Honda expertise would be greatly appreciated :
If I am only using the vtec wide open on the track and "occassionally" on the street, will I have too much to worry about??? I mean, I'm probably trading the CL in by the end of the year for Gayle to get her Accord (sooner if I don't get the results I want at the June 5th Import shootout), so this won't be happening extensively, but, will there be any short-term, negative effects????
What's the word, fellas?

[jasonslyric00]

I recant previous statement...I was tired and forgot that I decided (thanks in part to Ty) to get the VAFC because, without increase in fuel flow, my car will bog down with vtec opened at 3000rpm.
Anyway, this just FYI.
The same question applies, though :
About the oilpressure...will it/should it be an issue??

[I8ayellowcrayon]

Any lower than 4000 rpms, I would say is too low for the oil pressure. A friend of mine online has a ghetto-VTEC controller set on 4250 or about and he says it works great. He has a few mods too on a GSR engine...

[jasonslyric00]

< plan plan plan plan <span style='color:red'>KINK!!! plan plan plan ></span>

FYI :: If you can't read it, it means "Huge KINK in the plans"...huh huh, get it?

Anyway, I was cruising APEX'i website and on the Q&A section, someone entered the question "Does the VAFC work on 4cyl Accords". Well, I had no reason to think it wouldn't, but the answer was "No. The VAFC will work with 6cyl Accords, but they have not designed an application for 4cyl Accords..." because they are programmed to stall at 5000rpm if the VTEC engagement point is changed???!!!

WHAT THA ---- ??? :surp: :rant: :cry:

I wonder if that has to do with the F23/22/20 engines being SOHC or not.
But the Application Chart for the VAFC even says "UN-EE-VER-SUL!!!" (obviously not spelled like that). I'm trying to contact APEX'i tech support, but if not, I've got about 350.00 to turn into some power and I'm gonna have to find an alternate route to turning it into the most possible.
Well, cross your fingers for me, eh!?!
:noodles:

[Mr. Merk]

Originally posted by jasonslyric00@May 5 2004, 11:34 AM
I've got about 350.00 to turn into some power and I'm gonna have to find an alternate route to turning it into the most possible.
hope it works out for yah man, we still gonna line up at mokan jason?

btw: after mokan i should be getting that N2o kit for $350 :D hehe...

[Maliwho97]

Jason, if that is the case, it is going to be an ECU controlled feature. You can then get an OBD2-OBD1 adapter harness and run a reprogrammed P13 ecu, then wire in the vtec. Shouldn't be a problem then... I would NEVER open vtec at 3000 rpm, that is way too low... I'd stick w/ Jason at 4,250... The only way to get the most power out of the VAFC would be dyno tuning.....

[Mr. Merk]

Originally posted by Maliwho97@May 5 2004, 03:28 PM
The only way to get the most power out of the VAFC would be dyno tuning.....
can you say "HUMBLE"?

[jasonslyric00]

it is going to be an ECU controlled feature. You can then get an OBD2-OBD1 adapter harness and run a reprogrammed P13 ecu, then wire in the vtec. Shouldn't be a problem then... I would NEVER open vtec at 3000 rpm, that is way too low... I'd stick w/ Jason at 4,250... The only way to get the most power out of the VAFC would be dyno tuning.....

I was afraid you'd say that...(all of it).
I was thinking today about just getting the ECU chipped. I wasn't necessarily going to set Vtec to 3000...probably 3600/3700 was my cut off.
So...the harness and reprogramming will all fall under 350.00, right?? :unsure:

can you say "HUMBLE"?

That may be the case, bro...do me a favor : if you get the chance to talk to your homeboys there, let them know my dilemma and let me know what they say.
Actually, isn't one of the guys from Humble Perf. on the site now???
Where ya at, man?!?!?!

[Maliwho97]

No problem bro, I will call him later today and see what he would recommend doing to your car with $350. I'll get back at you.

[Mr. Merk]

Originally posted by Maliwho97@May 11 2004, 10:13 AM
No problem bro, I will call him later today and see what he would recommend doing to your car with $350. I'll get back at you.
when u talk to alex remind him to send me those pics for gary of his car, he's wanting to see it and he was supposed to send em over the weekend i guess, thanks :thumbup:

[Maliwho97]

He posted a couple pics on the forum I believe, just a couple outside shots. I'll post up pics of the car when I get back from T-Town this weekend.

[Mr. Merk]

Originally posted by Maliwho97@May 11 2004, 04:34 PM
He posted a couple pics on the forum I believe, just a couple outside shots. I'll post up pics of the car when I get back from T-Town this weekend.
whoa whoa whoa

dont post anything that would give anything away :ph34r:

maybe some outside shots but thats it, the only progress pics of the engine etc were supposed to be sent to me so i can pass them on to Gary, since he doesnt own a PC, he doesnt want people seeing the goods :sly:

[Maliwho97]

They are exterior shots only, don't worry. :D